I don't know what a "place" is exactly, but I am going to loosely define it as something that has a name. Places have names because people want to refer to them; because they can be referred to, they should be more easily found, and have an unambiguous computable representation so we know we are referring to the same thing.
From that, two goals follow:
Make OpenStreetMap data more "SEOable". Places on OpenStreetMap should be discoverable — right now, they aren't, unless you know what you are looking for and know how to use OpenStreetMap's toolchain. Wikimapia, for example, does a good job of making their data available to search engines. That they do this drives more traffic to their site, which probably also means more editors.
Provide a namespace (one that is open and collaboratively-edited) for referring to places for the Semantic Web, more specifically Tim Berners-Lee's linked data vision. DBpedia (and Freebase, to an extent) do this already for Wikipedia's topics, but nothing exists for OpenStreetMap's well-curated dataset and the idea of "places".
Ian Dees (iandees) thought up a fantastic pronunciation for OSMPlaces — awesome places.
Thanks to Laurence Penney (lorp) for many ideas! See IRC discussion below.
Please add more examples in this section!
URLs path components should follow the schema of:
<County, Subprovince, etc>/
Since country, state, and county lines generally rarely change (unlike cities), they are great for disambiguating a URI.
http://OSMPlaces.com/USA/New-Mexico/Socorro would refer to the county of Socorro, in New Mexico, USA.
http://OSMPlaces.com/USA/New-Mexico/Socorro/San-Antonio would refer to the city of San Antonio in Socorro, NM.
http://OSMPlaces.com/USA/New-Mexico/Socorro/Oscura-Army-Airfield would refer to Oscura Army Airfield, contained within aforementioned Socorro County.
Some things are larger than counties. So, they can move up a level. For example:
I am unsure how to describe smaller things. Such as buildings, which may not be unique. Some ideas… they might be part of a larger entity that is unique. For example:
http://OSMPlaces.com/USA/Massachussetts/Suffolk/MIT/Stata-Center could represent MIT's Stata Center.
An open question is how to represent things not part of these larger entities, which includes many commercial places. Such places wouldn't necessarily be unique. Fast food places, for example, are not unique to cities. Perhaps by calculating their nearest named intersection?
http://OSMPlaces.com/USA/New-Mexico/Dona-Ana/Boutz-and-El-Paseo/McDonalds for the McDonalds at Boutz and El Paseo.
This translates well to REST-ey type things.
If you'd like to fetch RDF for a place, http://OSMPlaces.com/USA/New-Mexico/Socorro/Oscura-Army-Airfield.rdf would fetch RDF triples (in RDF/XML) of associated OpenStreetMap tags. Perhaps .rdf.n3 for Notation3.
To fetch GeoJSON for a location, http://OSMPlaces.com/USA/New-Mexico/Socorro/Oscura-Army-Airfield.json would fetch JSON that could easily be used by a web app. Returned GeoJSON could return a polygon representing the area (if available) and a centroid point, or just the point itself.
Page content ideas
A mini-map displaying the place on OpenStreetMap. A link to the same location on Google Maps, Bing Maps, etc — we're the open ones, we don't need to discriminate against other services!
Link to the equivalent place on Google Places, Facebook Places, Foursquare, Yelp, etc. Again, we don't need to discriminate against other services.
A list of the tags associated with the place, including things like phone number, address, etc.
Include the contents of the relevant Wikipedia page (Wikimapia does this), for SEO/quick reference purposes.
A big "Know more about this place? Contribute to OpenStreetMap" link.
Phase 2 ideas
A lightweight "place" editor, that lets you easily add key/values to places. As-is, OpenStreetMap does not have a lightweight editor for quickly adding information, and the "gap of execution" of doing so is high. Say a user wants to add a phone number or the opening hours of their favorite pub: at the moment, they need to load up Potlatch or JOSM, which are much too complicated for all but the most dedicated of users. As general editors used by many of OSM's userbase, it doesn't make sense to make them any simpler. OSMPlaces "places" editor would be a simple, data-entry editor for beginning users.
05 Jan 2011
17:15 < Laurence> is there any reason the browse UI isn't directly editable? 17:15 -!- supermag [~Fingerpri@ti0010a380-0075.bb.online.no] has joined #osm 17:15 < Laurence> the UI on the main osm site, as in http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/854053101 17:17 < xjjk> it'd be really nice if it was, actually 17:17 < xjjk> don't have to load up a full heavy editor 17:17 -!- speedevil1 [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:18 -!- speedevil [email@example.com] has joined #osm 17:18 < Laurence> yeah, i just edited something in potlatch but the load time is a fair old while 17:18 < xjjk> this is all stuff I've been meaning to bring up on -dev 17:18 < Laurence> huge overkill for the housename -> housenumber typo i was fixing 17:18 < xjjk> also, SEO of things in OSM 17:18 < Borbus> I saw somethign strange the other day.. a cyclepath that goes straight across the middle of a roundabout 17:19 < Laurence> you mean, all browseable element pages should be linked from list pages? 17:19 < Borbus> I suppose the cyclepath should technically connect to the roundabout 17:19 < xjjk> not sure what you mean by "list page" 17:19 -!- heroid [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:19 < xjjk> but Points of Interest, relations, and areas should be findable by Google 17:19 < xjjk> Wikimapia does a great job of this 17:19 < Laurence> a page, perhaps generated by taginfo, listing all shop=butcher in the uk 17:20 < Laurence> and same for all tags 17:20 < xjjk> Laurence: I was thinking more oriented around named places 17:20 < Laurence> divided up geographically, perhaps as geofabrik divides up the world 17:20 < xjjk> call it an open/wiki Google/Facebook/whomever places 17:20 < xjjk> this has a semantic web aspect too 17:20 < Laurence> so all named places would be friendly to search bots? 17:21 < xjjk> I want to be able to refer to things canonically 17:21 < xjjk> Laurence: yes 17:21 < Laurence> there's a "download xml" on those browser pages 17:21 < Laurence> the inward links are the missing things for search engines 17:21 < Laurence> though google is perfectly able to parse planet.osm? 17:22 < Borbus> Hmm.. I've been editing OSM for 6 hours today 17:22 < xjjk> Laurence: why should search engines need to parse XML... 17:22 < xjjk> instead of just making the 'browse' pages friendlier/prettier 17:22 < Laurence> because they digest it more nicely? i thought you were proposing a more semweb approach 17:22 < Laurence> agreed, the browse pages could be prettier 17:23 < xjjk> Laurence: well, OSM is already setup for semweb 17:23 < xjjk> pretty well 17:23 < xjjk> except for a few needed things... 17:23 < xjjk> canonical URLs being one of them 17:23 < Laurence> and more like, say, a Yelp page about a place 17:23 < xjjk> Laurence: bingo 17:23 < xjjk> that should be SEO and user-friendly 17:23 * speedevil resists the urge to stab people. 17:24 < xjjk> and as you mentioned, should be able to add tags (say, add a phone number or opening hours) 17:24 < xjjk> without having to launch Potlatch or JOSM 17:24 < Laurence> certainly 17:24 < xjjk> if you want to do that, now... it's like 3-4 clicks 17:24 < xjjk> 3-4 confusing clicks that'd you'd never find unless you were an experienced OSM user 17:24 < Laurence> i was thinking of making custom OSM UIs for some streets around Bristol 17:25 < xjjk> hrm. osmplaces.com is available 17:25 < Laurence> e.g. Gloucester Road and Stokes Croft are much loved by residents and shop owners 17:25 < Laurence> could even be a linear UI, not geographic 17:25 < Laurence> and the editing would directly edit OSM elements 17:26 < Laurence> (.org nicer) 17:26 -!- Blackadder [~Blackadde@87-194-16-233.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: heading for the next unmapped place=] 17:26 < Laurence> each editor would have to create their own OSM account of course 17:26 < xjjk> Laurence: from a semweb standpoint, it'd be nice if OSM had canonical friendly URLs for things 17:27 < Laurence> but once the buildings and housenumbers are in, there are very few relevent changes to the geography 17:27 < Laurence> such as? 17:27 < xjjk> Laurence: e.g., say I want to refer to Disney Land 17:27 -!- supermag [~Fingerpri@ti0010a380-0075.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27 < xjjk> something like osmplaces/r/347/Disney-Land 17:27 < Laurence> who are you btw, do we know each other? 17:28 < xjjk> Laurence: I'm Samat; I don't think I know you? 17:28 < xjjk> Laurence: in RDF objects are referred to by URLs 17:28 < xjjk> and the idea is that these URLs be canonical 17:28 < Laurence> ok, i don't think we know each other 17:28 < Laurence> would the final text portion need to be = the object name? 17:28 < xjjk> i.e. http://samat.org/#me would refer to me 17:28 < xjjk> Laurence: no 17:28 < xjjk> but it'd be nice for user-friendliness/SEO 17:29 < Laurence> is 347 the relation id? 17:29 < xjjk> yes 17:29 < xjjk> that doesn't need to be in there either 17:29 < xjjk> but another obstacle here is that OSM doesn't have unique identifiers for "objects" or "things" 17:29 < Laurence> would be nice to enforce the canonical as the name, if the element had a name 17:29 < xjjk> there isn't a way to keep track if something started out as a node 17:29 < xjjk> then graduated to an area 17:30 < xjjk> and to a relation 17:30 < xjjk> especially if the name changes 17:30 < Laurence> using .../r .../n and .../w isn't so bad, is it? 17:30 < Laurence> oh yeah that 17:30 < xjjk> Laurence: yeh, I just mentioned that as an easy-to-do first step 17:30 < Laurence> i brought htat up again on the list the other day 17:30 < xjjk> along with the names 17:30 < xjjk> names are user-friendly 17:30 < xjjk> IDs are not 17:30 < Laurence> i've been upgrading many nodes into building outlines 17:31 < xjjk> yeah 17:31 < Laurence> best practice seems to be to use the node as a part of the new outline 17:31 < xjjk> Laurence: yep 17:31 -!- diegows [~email@example.com] has joined #osm 17:31 < xjjk> that's not immediately useful, though 17:31 < Laurence> not very nice if someone else edits 17:31 < doctau_> Laurence: there was a UID discussion a few months ago (tagging list?) about this :) 17:31 < xjjk> OSM doesn't have a way to expose history 17:32 < Laurence> and each parser has to implement its own method of tracking that 17:32 < xjjk> in a semantic/machine computable-way anyway 17:32 < Laurence> oh i didn't see the UID discussion 17:32 < xjjk> meh, I need to catch up reading the OSM mailing lists 17:32 < Laurence> we shifted to UIDs years ago in my other web project, and haven't looked back 17:32 < doctau_> but it got messy quickly. If I tag a building which is a shop with a UID and the shop moves, was the UID for the physical building or the shop? 17:32 -!- doctau_ is now known as doctau 17:33 * diegows is thinking about the new license terms and have question about accepting it with the public domain 17:33 < xjjk> doctau: _should_ be the shop 17:33 < Laurence> indeed, i moved Cafe Kino to its new location 40 yds away the other day 17:33 < Laurence> and felt a bit dirty doing it 17:33 < xjjk> the shop is the entity people care about 17:33 < xjjk> doctau: people would also care if that entity changed locations, for example, though that's another tangent 17:33 < xjjk> nobody cares about the building 17:33 < Laurence> uh huh... some do 17:34 < xjjk> well, most don't =/ 17:34 < doctau> a lot of people do care about the building 17:34 < Laurence> architectural historians love buildings and tracking changing usage 17:34 < Laurence> for the street sites i mentioned and may yet set up, i am interested if the community manages to keep track of building occupancy in the years after a new Tesco comes in 17:34 < xjjk> yeah, I'm going to take a perspective that more people care about the shop than the building 17:34 < xjjk> also: the building isn't moving 17:35 < Laurence> that requires tracking of buildings and its social function 17:35 < xjjk> nor is its address changing/etc 17:35 < xjjk> it's more permanent 17:35 < xjjk> it doesn't really need a UUID in the first place 17:35 < xjjk> it's not ephemeral 17:35 < doctau> xjjk: that's fine, but it gets complicated if the shop moves into two new buildings instead of their old one, or similar 17:35 < xjjk> doctau: mmm yeah 17:35 < doctau> I think that's where the UID discussion got bogged down - what exactly are you tagging with the UID 17:36 < Laurence> i don't see your point related to UIDs ? some people will want to refer to that building, and in many many cases the WayID will last for years, and hence be useful as an external ID 17:37 < doctau> the building may not move physically, but it can get changed from a node to a closed way (and so keep a UID across it) 17:37 < Laurence> the point i don't get is how you (xjjk) relate permanence to a lack of requirement for UIDs 17:37 < Laurence> doctau, that's certainly a great advantage of UIDs for buildings 17:38 < doctau> I think a lot of people would like UIDs, but implementing them in a way which isn't too easy to break when people who don't understand it all edit is hard 17:38 < Laurence> do you think many people move building outlines to new locations, if the business moves? 17:38 < Laurence> i agree, it happens a lot with nodes (i did one myself) 17:39 -!- ajturner [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has quit [Quit: ajturner] 17:42 -!- iandees is now known as Guest3430 17:42 -!- Guest3372 is now known as iandees 17:45 -!- hawke [~BGTDOM\email@example.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:45 < crschmidt> xjjk: YCbCr JPEG-in-TIFF done right has no visual difference from an uncompressed TIFF, and has an up to 130x space saving. 17:45 < crschmidt> xjjk: If you've got the space and disk bandwidth for uncompressed imagery, great, more power to you. 17:45 < crschmidt> But if you're dealing with country-wide NAIP, worldwide landsat, large area .15M resolution imagery -- uncompressed is not practical. 17:46 < crschmidt> And the speed cost from MrSID is *huge* -- compared to even JPEG decompression you're talking about a 10x CPU usage difference. 17:47 < crschmidt> For small areas or small amounts of imagery, this is all moot 17:48 < crschmidt> uncompressed tiff is fine 17:49 < crschmidt> for large collections of imagery, you have to do *something* smart -- and YCbCr 75% JPEG with a 1-bit mask lets you create seamless JPEG-in-TIFF mosaics at a 50-100x space savings, meaning you can actually fit a lot more imagery on disk (and get at it a lot faster) 17:50 -!- DeathBaba [~Alex@22.214.171.124] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:51 < xjjk> sorry, disconnected 17:51 < xjjk> crschmidt: hrm, not familar with YCbCr JPEG-in-TIFF... 17:52 < xjjk> Laurence: I can't really defend things outside my own use cases 17:53 -!- randart [~Mike@126.96.36.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:54 < xjjk> but for buildings, roads, etc: these are all things still in OSM 17:55 < xjjk> and my pointing out that they tend to be more permanent is that regular OSM IDs as-is are fine for purposes using building information 17:55 < xjjk> there isn't information being lost 17:56 -!- randart [~Mike@188.8.131.52] has joined #osm 17:57 * xjjk hits his Internet 17:57 -!- Aison [~Foobar@zux182-175.adsl.green.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:59 -!- zorko [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has joined #osm 18:01 * ToeBee envisions Al Gore h itting back 18:04 -!- randart_ [~Mike@184.108.40.206] has joined #osm 18:05 -!- randart [~Mike@220.127.116.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:13 < crschmidt> xjjk: Well, it doesn't really matter, since you've already outright rejected JPEG as useless. 18:14 < xjjk> crschmidt: my notion of JPEG is useless, yes 18:14 < xjjk> if the same limitations don't apply to YCbCr JPEG/TIFF then obviously I'm interested 18:14 < xjjk> how does it get around blocking artifacts? 18:15 < crschmidt> What blocking artifacts? All things will have pixelation when you go in far enough. 18:15 -!- emacsen_ [~email@example.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:15 < crschmidt> Part of the design of JPEG is that you can tweak quality levels to the point where there's no visible difference. 18:15 < xjjk> there aren't blocking artifacts with "lossless" formats 18:15 < xjjk> JPEG2000 lossless, PNG, etc 18:16 < xjjk> and when you zoom in... the differences become visible 18:16 < xjjk> am I wrong for wanting to push the limit of 1m/pixel imagery? 18:19 -!- zorko [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:20 -!- harry-wood [~email@example.com] has left #osm  18:20 -!- tjikkun [~tjikkun@2001:7b8:356:0:204:bff:fe80:8080] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:23 -!- randart [~Mike@18.104.22.168] has joined #osm 18:24 < crschmidt> xjjk: Honestly, you sound like someone who wants things but has not put any effort into trying them. 18:24 < crschmidt> There *are* blocking artifacts with lossless imagery if you go beyond the source resolution. 18:25 < crschmidt> And again, JPEG is designed such that you can adjust quality to the point where you have practically no visible differences. 18:25 -!- springmeyer [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has quit [Quit: springmeyer] 18:25 -!- randart_ [~Mike@22.214.171.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:25 < xjjk> crschmidt: I'm glad you think you're being helpful resorting to personal attacks 18:26 < Komzpa> meooow. 18:26 < xjjk> pretty sure the first thing I asked when you mentioned it was "do you have more info?" 18:27 < Komzpa> why do you call JPEG useless? it can compress better than BMP. :3 18:28 < xjjk> Komzpa: you're directing that to crschmidt, right? those are words he put into my mouth, not my own 18:29 -!- NEOhidra [~email@example.com] has left #osm  18:29 < Komzpa> miau. I usually type in IRC with my fingers, not mouth. 18:30 < Komzpa> but, anyway, good night to everyone :) 18:31 < xjjk> meh, I don't have any GeoTIFFs lying around to compare... 18:35 -!- ndim [firstname.lastname@example.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:35 * pnorman tosses xjjk a 1.4 GB GeoTIFF 18:36 < xjjk> I have a 40 GB GeoTIFF on another machine I don't have access to ATM 18:36 < pnorman> What I suspect you'd find in this case is that you're making z19 tiles from a z18.5 source 18:36 < xjjk> pnorman: you know, I've never bothered to check/calculate that... I always let gdal2tiles.py pick the zoom 18:36 -!- tjikkun [~email@example.com] has joined #osm 18:37 < pnorman> It isn't perfect 18:38 < balrog-k1n> i remember some program refusing to talk to me at all if i wanted it to load, or generate, a tiff bigger than 2GB 18:38 < xjjk> balrog-k1n: thats most programs 18:39 < balrog-k1n> xjjk: how do you deal with 40GB tiffs then? 18:39 < pnorman> very slowly :) 18:39 < xjjk> use the programs that do work 18:40 < xjjk> it was a lot of work to find them 18:40 < ToeBee> hmm I assume width=* tags are supposed to be in meters? 18:40 < pnorman> xjjk: it seems a *lot* faster running gdal2tiles on this machine then the old cpu 18:40 < ToeBee> the FAA diagrams list runway width in feet 18:40 * balrog-k1n assumed that tiffs just couldn't handle bigger files (integers would overrun) so no other program would work with them anyway.. perhaps this was wrong 18:40 < pnorman> ToeBee: yes 18:40 < xjjk> balrog-k1n: there's a BigTIFF standard 18:40 < balrog-k1n> ToeBee: i think you can add a unit at the end 18:41 < xjjk> programs need to explictly support it 18:41 < xjjk> gdal does 18:41 < balrog-k1n> i see 18:41 < ToeBee> heh there are 809 "width=narrow" tags 18:42 < ToeBee> units at the end are not used at all 18:43 < ToeBee> like maybe 100 out of 484,000 tags 18:43 < xjjk> ToeBee: how many airports in KS had airport diagrams? 18:44 < xjjk> in NM I only found 1 airport 18:44 < ToeBee> I didn't look for all of them. But at least... 3? 4? 18:44 < xjjk> which was a military base, so attaching this information isn't useful for most people 18:44 < ToeBee> yeah one of them is Forbes field 18:45 < ToeBee> but mid continent in wichita, Salina municipal, the Topeka municipal one and Kansas city all had one 18:45 < ToeBee> kansas city is technically in MO... but still 18:46 < ToeBee> oh wow Manhattan regional has one 18:46 < pnorman> ugh, ogr2osm is failing with a KeyError 18:46 -!- Tensho [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:46 < gregory> hmm, I thought great_britain.osm.bz2 was about 380MB 18:47 < ToeBee> pnorman: it's my bug! 18:47 < pnorman> ToeBee: No, I tried with and without the -1 18:47 < gregory> oh, nevermind the download has stopped at 400M 18:47 < ToeBee> oh. Then it's your fault :p 18:47 < pnorman> IIt's on line 594 18:48 < ToeBee> typo in the array key? 18:48 < pnorman> for nodeID in segmentNodes[segmentID]: with segmentID=-37720 18:48 < pnorman> No, I've had it work on other files okay, just not a couple 18:49 < pnorman> I wonder if it's related to it being negative 18:49 < pnorman> No - works on other - numbers. 18:50 < xjjk> eh. is -37720 important? 18:50 < xjjk> whatever it is 18:50 < Laurence> xjjk: can you point me to how wikimapia handles google well? 18:50 < pnorman> dunno wtf it is honestly 18:51 < xjjk> pnorman: if you want to hack around it... 18:51 < xjjk> change that line to for nodeId in segmentNodes.get(segmentID) 18:51 < iandees> Laurence, what do you mean "handles google well"? 18:51 < xjjk> Laurence: yes... give me a second 18:51 < xjjk> Laurence: er, yes, actually 18:51 < xjjk> what DO you mean handle google well? 18:52 < xjjk> I was thinking you meant give you a search query for which Wikimapia is a top result 18:52 < xjjk> I've found a couple dozen of these in the past few months 18:52 < xjjk> it's what I get for mapping the middle of nowheres of America 18:52 < pnorman> xjjk: then it errors with for nodeID in segmentNodes[segmentID]: 18:52 < xjjk> er, sory, is that a different line or the one you changed 18:52 < pnorman> same 18:53 < xjjk> pnorman: you're supposed to change the line 18:53 < xjjk> instead of doing a dictionary access, call the get method 18:53 < xjjk> the former will raise an exception, the latter will return None/null which should just let the program continue 18:53 < pnorman> File "ogr2osm.py", line 594, in <module> for nodeID in segmentNodes.get(segmentID): TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not iterable 18:53 < xjjk> Laurence: Google "Oscura Airfield" 18:54 < xjjk> Wikimapia first hit 18:54 < xjjk> nothing in Google's results is OSM... 18:54 < xjjk> and IMHO, it should be 18:55 < xjjk> Laurence: of course, this particular example is contrived because it's a military airfield in the middle of nowhere in restricted airspace 18:55 < xjjk> but that's not the point: it shows up when people search for it 18:55 < pnorman> xjjk: What OSM site would you say it should be? 18:55 < xjjk> how is that a bad thing 18:55 -!- gregory [~email@example.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:56 < xjjk> pnorman: the openstreetmap.org browse page, probably 18:56 < xjjk> display the tags 18:56 < xjjk> a mini map 18:56 < xjjk> etc 18:56 < pnorman> xjjk: What OSM site would you say it should be? 18:56 < pnorman> whoops 18:57 < pnorman> xjjk: I fixed that error by adding in a check on the line before. if segmentNodes.get(segmentID): 18:57 < xjjk> pnorman: that works too 18:58 < pnorman> fixed it in one other location, now to check the data 18:58 < Laurence> thanks xjjk, interesting 18:58 < Laurence> and damn groupon for spamming my life 18:58 < xjjk> Laurence: haha, have you unsubscribed? 18:59 < xjjk> the unsubscribe e-mail video is *GREAT* 18:59 < Laurence> an ad on wikimapia 18:59 < xjjk> oh 18:59 < xjjk> Laurence: I have an (completely unsubstantiated) feeling that Wikimapia's better SEO is how they recruit mappers 18:59 < Laurence> ok, i don't think i want to sub just to see the unsub ad! 18:59 < xjjk> one of the ways, anyway 19:00 < xjjk> if I was the self-driven kind of person to search for a middle of nowhere airfield 19:00 < Laurence> yeah, it's quite a big deal i agree 19:00 < xjjk> and found info about it 19:00 < xjjk> and could have a way to contribute information about it 19:00 < xjjk> I would 19:00 < Laurence> we should be competing on coverage of obscure places that the general public don't know are mapped 19:00 < xjjk> I don't do it in Wikimapia's case because it's Wikimapia 19:00 < xjjk> Laurence: that's another issue entirely 19:00 < xjjk> that I won't talk about 19:01 < xjjk> but, back on the topic of information that is already there 19:01 < xjjk> that OSM doesn't expose well/could expose better 19:01 < xjjk> wondering if I should register osmplaces.com and just do this myself =/ 19:01 < Laurence> sorry, i meant that we are competing - but the public don't know it without good seo 19:01 -!- randart_ [~Mike@126.96.36.199] has joined #osm 19:01 < xjjk> said airport would be osmplaces.com/airports/Oscura_Army_Airfield 19:01 < xjjk> and on that page, a minimap and list of tags 19:01 < xjjk> and big link CONTRIBUTE TO OSM 19:02 < Laurence> i've thought something like osmplaces is inevitable at some point, and that it would get picked up by OSMF and run in parallel 19:02 < Laurence> with warnings about changing ids when there's info attached 19:02 < xjjk> Laurence: I don't know how to tackle the ID problem 19:02 < xjjk> other than not attempt to tackle it at all 19:02 < iandees> it doesn't need to be an ID 19:02 < iandees> in that case 19:02 < pnorman> I've wondered about how to handle that - how can you point at the particular object that represents something in the real world. 19:02 < iandees> you could search by name 19:03 < xjjk> iandees: in what case? 19:03 < xjjk> iandees: but, what if the name changes 19:03 < Laurence> are you saying use "Oscura_Army_Airfield" as the id? 19:03 -!- randart [~Mike@188.8.131.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:04 < iandees> when you get to a wikimapia result page it's something like http://wikimapia/USA/Nevada/Area_51 19:04 < Laurence> the one xjjk just mentioned is not like that 19:04 < Laurence> http://wikimapia.org/3815512/Oscura-Aaf-Aux-Landing-Strip 19:04 < xjjk> Laurence: it could be 19:05 < Laurence> you mean some wikimapia pages are like that, or they could reprogram? 19:05 < xjjk> Laurence: er, if there were an OSMPlaces.com, that is what it could do 19:05 < Laurence> oh, i thought you were talking about programming inside wm 19:06 < xjjk> I don't care about WM 19:06 < xjjk> other than that they are doing something like tis 19:06 < xjjk> and it appears to be working 19:06 < Laurence> nor me 19:06 < iandees> honestly you could make static pages for the entirety of OSM 19:06 < iandees> and update them weekly or daily 19:06 < xjjk> iandees: that's what I was thinking 19:06 < xjjk> just dump a bunch of static pages 19:07 < xjjk> list of tags. mini map. big link 'contribute to osm' 19:07 < iandees> accept changes into your local DB 19:07 < Laurence> the browse pages are that already - however they are ugly, not listed anywhere nice for google to find, not editable, and not commentable 19:07 < iandees> or that 19:07 < xjjk> make a huge sitemap.xml and submit to Google/friends 19:07 < xjjk> iandees: that was an idea Laurence had earlier, actually 19:07 < xjjk> editing on the browse pages 19:07 < xjjk> you shouldn't need to launch potlatch/josm to add a phone number or opening_hours to a place 19:07 < xjjk> it's a huge barrier to contribution 19:08 < iandees> yea 19:08 < xjjk> iandees: though, rather than submitting that to a local db... said thing could just be a webapp 19:08 < Laurence> could even have arrow 'nudge' keys to move things +/-5m around 19:08 < xjjk> that connects to OSM via OAuth 19:08 < xjjk> all this stuff alread exists! 19:08 < Laurence> but that's prob stage 2... :-) 19:08 < xjjk> just need to write it! 19:09 < Laurence> what did you think of the 'linear street' idea, xjjk? 19:09 < xjjk> Laurence: linear street? 19:09 < Laurence> the idea would be to present a street rather like those old routefinding books from the 19th century 19:10 < Laurence> they show a street, set in type, all straight 19:10 < xjjk> I have no idea what you're talking about 19:10 < xjjk> have an example? 19:10 < Laurence> with things either side positioned roughly in proportion to where they are if you straightened the street 19:10 < pnorman> I draw maps like that by hand sometimes 19:10 < xjjk> iandees: just wondering, do you think this is an interesting/useful idea? 19:10 < Laurence> 1 min 19:11 < xjjk> I've been trying to think of an SOTM presentation/paper 19:11 < xjjk> writing an OSMPlaces.com seems like a good idea 19:11 < Laurence> yes, it's very like how we draw by hand when we ignore minor bends and curves 19:11 < xjjk> it'd be an open competitor to Facebook Places, Google Places, etc 19:11 < xjjk> Laurence: reminds me of subway/train maps? 19:11 < Laurence> you'd need to preselect areas which are well enough stocked with POIs 19:12 < Laurence> i was thinking of launching an 'OSMsquare' with checkins and badges when i added all the shops down several local streets 19:12 < xjjk> Laurence: not a bad idea 19:12 < Laurence> yes, like subway maps 19:13 < Laurence> i came up with monitor and prefect as the two levels of 'mayoralty' 19:13 < xjjk> Laurence: I thought about doing that too 19:13 < Laurence> terms from my old school 19:13 < xjjk> except, I don't know anything about game theory 19:13 < xjjk> and I am not sure I care enough to learn 19:13 < iandees> https://docs.google.com/drawings/edit?id=12tTJfCJ_Ws55P86uubTC1qaA4AVOxnl2uUdzL2jCQvo&hl=en&authkey=CMbB0u0G 19:13 < xjjk> there is a LOT of interesting stuff going on in Foursquare 19:13 < xjjk> which is why it's successful 19:13 < Laurence> no, incentives for normal people still needs work for a non-commercial project 19:14 < Laurence> nice iandees 19:14 < xjjk> iandees: I see, interesting 19:14 < pnorman> They actually did some research with people drawing maps by hand into what gets scaled up and down by them 19:14 < xjjk> iandees: Laurence: a headache I see with this... which goes back to the UUID discussion earlier... what's a "street" 19:14 < Mike1_> somehow I don’t get at all what iandees drew there 19:14 < xjjk> a single logical way would be divided into a bunch of little different ways on OSM 19:15 < xjjk> indicating stuff like different speed limits/etc 19:15 < xjjk> I know relations are supposed to be used to group the segments together 19:15 < xjjk> but I don't do that 19:15 < xjjk> I don't think many others do 19:15 < pnorman> Renderer support for those relations is lacking iirc 19:15 < iandees> Mike1_, showing an idea for an alternative browse page 19:16 < xjjk> Mike1_: I forget the name, it's a style of map 19:16 < iandees> view the businesses along a road way 19:16 < xjjk> rather than indicate actual topology 19:16 < Laurence> http://books.google.com/books?id=l51bAAAAQAAJ&dq=Paterson%E2%80%99s%20roads&pg=PA472#v=onepage&q&f=false 19:16 < xjjk> you just list the street/way/whatever as a line 19:16 < xjjk> and points of interest along it 19:16 < xjjk> many mass transit systems/subway maps/etc are indicated like this 19:17 < xjjk> there's a name for it, I can't recal... 19:17 < xjjk> I read about it in a book about the NYC subway, haha... 19:17 < Mike1_> ah 19:17 < Laurence> this is an old UI that would work quite well for a modern street 19:17 < xjjk> Laurence: neat! 19:17 < xjjk> Laurence: very 19:17 < Laurence> i actually have that book, it's very nice 19:17 < xjjk> Laurence: this would be a nice browse/index page of sorts for such a OSMPlaces 19:18 < Laurence> it would work as a UI for any route that a routing engine found 19:18 < speedevil> Laurence: I assume you're not also known as laurencb? 19:18 < Laurence> no 19:18 < Laurence> more often Lorp online in fact 19:18 < Mike1_> what’s that strange book? oO 19:18 < Laurence> routing, 1820 style 19:19 < speedevil> k 19:19 < Mike1_> and people were supposed to be able to use that? 19:20 -!- Mike1_ is now known as Mike1 19:20 < Laurence> what idea do you propose for a UI made only paper printed using lead type? 19:20 < ToeBee> so the JOSM validator really needs to be changed to not complain about north/south/east/west relation memberships 19:21 < Mike1> Laurence: just telling people to get a map and see how to get from A to B ;) 19:21 < Laurence> it's really rather a lovely UI when you study it a bit 19:21 < Laurence> maps are very expensive to print, in 1820 19:21 < Laurence> also they get damaged easily 19:21 < Laurence> printing using lead type, much better! 19:22 < xjjk> Laurence: my RESTy gears are flowing 19:22 < Mike1> Laurence: I’ve nevery been able to find a place with verbal descriptions 19:23 < Laurence> love maps or hate words? 19:23 < ToeBee> hmm no "josm" component in trac? 19:23 < iandees> josm.openstreetmap.de 19:23 < pnorman> josm has it's own 19:23 < ToeBee> bah! 19:23 < xjjk> something like osmplaces.com/USA/New-Mexico/Oscura-Army-Airfield.html 19:23 < xjjk> want that in GeoJSON? osmplaces.com/USA/New-Mexico/Oscura-Army-Airfield.html gets you a centroid point/polygon/whatever 19:24 < xjjk> want the tags in RDF? osmplaces.com/USA/New-Mexico/Oscura-Army-Airfield.rdf 19:24 < Laurence> xjjk - what things would you def include and def exclude? 19:24 < Laurence> roads? landuse? 19:24 < xjjk> Laurence: no idea 19:24 < xjjk> Laurence: named things 19:24 < xjjk> not roads, probably 19:24 < Laurence> good answer 19:24 < xjjk> roads don't really have a "location" 19:24 < xjjk> they go from point a to point b 19:24 < Mike1> Laurence: hate people ;) People’s unique perception and memory make their descriptions quite useless for everyone besides themselves. 19:25 < Laurence> blimey Mike1 19:25 < iandees> a road's page could list the stuff on that road 19:26 < Laurence> yes, ian, i think turned into a straight vertical strip you could do quite an interesting ui on that 19:26 < xjjk> iandees: yah... in the manner Laurence described/you linked to 19:26 < Laurence> like the 1820s pages 19:27 < iandees> that'd be hard to keep SEO-able 19:27 < Laurence> how so? 19:27 < Laurence> all html5, hardly any graphics 19:27 < xjjk> iandees: how so? just a page going down 19:27 < xjjk> yes, HTML5/CSS3 rock 19:27 < iandees> true 19:27 < xjjk> can do all these rotations/etc 19:27 < iandees> well let's go guys, get it done! 19:27 < Laurence> oh shit, ok 19:28 < xjjk> iandees: would you think this is an interesting SOTM paper/poster... 19:28 < iandees> heck yea 19:28 < Laurence> my angle on the roads thing, is that they'd be great as a kind of community hub 19:28 < xjjk> go me 19:28 < iandees> but don't waste time writing the proposal, just implement it :) 19:28 < xjjk> iandees: I've been looking for an excuse to load up the OSM DB... 19:28 < Laurence> a bit like a better presented and more localized http://www.myyate.co.uk/ (which is done my a bristol OSMer) 19:29 < xjjk> hot 19:29 < xjjk> osmplac.es is available 19:29 < Laurence> heh 19:29 < xjjk> I can even have a silly web 2.0-ish URL! 19:29 -!- randart [~Mike@184.108.40.206] has joined #osm 19:29 < xjjk> the key to success 19:29 < iandees> is place.ly available? 19:29 < Mike1> just wait for the IPcalypse :p 19:30 < xjjk> iandees: I doubt it... and I really have qualms about Libya anyway 19:30 < xjjk> it's really low that so many web 2.0 companies have gone in that direction 19:30 < iandees> yea but it's so 2.0 19:30 < xjjk> it is =/ 19:30 < xjjk> place.ly is taken by someone in New Jersey 19:31 -!- randart_ [~Mike@220.127.116.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:31 < Laurence> xjjk, shall we buy a domain each and hassle each other to get stuff done? 19:31 < Laurence> i was thinking of the ord 19:31 < Laurence> org 19:32 < iandees> you have to promise to donate at least some of the Google ad revenue back to OSM :) 19:32 < Laurence> i think that's fair using the OSM tm 19:34 < iandees> i think the neatest piece for this idea would be a customizable mini-POI editor for a way/node ID 19:34 < Laurence> xjjk, do you mind if i grab it, since you first said get osmplaces.com 19:34 < xjjk> iandees: yeah... I'd like that to be a phase 2 ideas 19:34 < Laurence> yes, that would be a cool first use 19:34 < xjjk> Laurence: you're getting .es or .com? 19:34 < Laurence> .org 19:34 < iandees> i.e. <script src="http://osmplaces.org/editor.js?node=429385"> would create a iframe or something 19:34 < xjjk> Laurence: go for it 19:35 < xjjk> I'm partial to .es 19:35 < xjjk> it's short 19:35 < xjjk> will probably get .com since it's .com and available... 19:35 < Laurence> got it 19:35 < xjjk> iandees: I am thinking a very realizable phase 1 idea is just static html pages 19:35 < xjjk> and get google to crawl it 19:35 < iandees> oh and it has to be pronounced "awesome places" 19:36 < xjjk> iandees: awesome!!! 19:36 < Laurence> heh, very cool! 19:36 < ToeBee> hah! 19:36 < Laurence> how do we get the goog to crawl? lists of all the shop=supermarket in uk, etc? 19:36 < iandees> i'm thinking about the editor because when you start out the pages will be very empty 19:36 -!- supermag [~Fingerpri@ti0010a380-0075.bb.online.no] has joined #osm 19:36 < Laurence> or do that sitemap thing 19:37 < iandees> just make pages and link between them 19:37 < iandees> then get people to link to them 19:37 < xjjk> iandees: yah.... trying to think of a simple, accessible user-friendly editor... 19:37 < Laurence> why will they be empty? do you mean lacking comments and extra stuff? 19:37 < xjjk> Laurence: sitemap thing is a start 19:37 < iandees> lacking content from the OSM data 19:37 < xjjk> iandees: er, I don't follow 19:37 < ToeBee> hmm I know a guy who does SEO for a day job. He might be able to provide some pointers once you get a basic site up 19:38 < Laurence> it would be a given, i think, that we'd import all of osm before launch 19:38 < iandees> i mean a McDonalds is going to be tagged name=McDonald's, amenity=fast_food, cuisine=burger 19:38 < Laurence> test on small areas 19:38 < xjjk> ToeBee: mehh SEO is a snake oil business 19:38 < iandees> so you get a page with a big <h1> for name 19:38 < xjjk> make simple, useful pages. 19:38 < xjjk> the world will come to you 19:38 < ToeBee> I suppose 19:38 < iandees> and then say ... McDonald's is a fast food business. 19:39 < Laurence> yes, and if you make people see how cool it is when an area has really well tagged shops, it'll encourage tagging and use of the UI 19:39 < xjjk> iandees: mmm I'd not work that hard 19:39 < xjjk> iandees: probably, just do a search on wikipedia 19:39 < xjjk> and include a snippet on the page 19:39 < Laurence> it would be good if we could get a one-line short description instead of the whole wiki text 19:39 < iandees> that's what Mechanical Turk is for :) 19:39 < Laurence> for what shop=butcher means, etc 19:40 < iandees> oh, the OSM tags can be hand-done 19:40 < xjjk> there's simple english wikipedia 19:40 < xjjk> is there a short wikipedia somewhere 19:40 < xjjk> twitterpedia, hahah 19:40 < Laurence> i mean to explain what this tag means, by using a condensed version of what's on the OSM wiki 19:40 < xjjk> everything about the world in 140 characters or less 19:40 < xjjk> this is another site idea 19:41 < xjjk> that I will let some MBA follow up on 19:41 < Laurence> quite a cool one 19:41 < Mike1> iandees wants to make something like wikimapia? 19:41 < Laurence> you've seen http://twitter.com/booksin140 19:41 < pnorman> xjjk: It was you who I got the rename script for TMS numbering to google TMS number, right? 19:42 < xjjk> pnorman: yes 19:42 < pnorman> Should post that somewhere 19:42 < xjjk> pnorman: I need to publish that... 19:42 < xjjk> I write all these stupid scripts all the time =/ 19:42 < Laurence> ok i gotta go 19:42 < Laurence> bed 19:42 < pnorman> could stick it on your wiki user page 19:43 < Laurence> good to talk to you guys, i'm known as Lorp at lot online, on OSM wiki, etc 19:43 < xjjk> Laurence: I'm SamatJain 19:43 < Laurence> at lot -> a lot 19:43 < Laurence> which part of the world? 19:43 < xjjk> pnorman: I've a gitorious/github acct I've been meaning to populate 19:43 < xjjk> USA 19:44 < xjjk> pnorman: I am not good at the software engineering side of things... 19:44 < xjjk> for example, the gdal2tiles.py thing 19:44 < xjjk> I really, really need to add a lot of error checking to that =/ 19:45 < xjjk> it's really sort of lucky that I turned a single-threaded program everyone complains about is slow into a n-faster one in an evening 19:45 < xjjk> there are lot of bugs in it... 19:45 < xjjk> 2 or 3 race conditions...